We’re turning from schools powered by AI to different AI-powered tools now on Class Disrupted!
Matt Pasternak, founder and CEO of Once, an AI-powered software solution for early reading instruction, joined us to share the journey of creating Once—including how he started from a low-tech beginning and evolved into a software-powered solution that equips school support staff to deliver effective one-on-one reading tutoring. Our conversation also talked about the importance of human connection in learning. I appreciated a lot of Matt’s nuance throughout the conversation—and look forward to your thoughts and feedback!
Diane Tavenner
Hey Michael.
Michael Horn
Hey, Diane. Good to see you after a few episodes, diving deep into school models and thinking all about AI and what it enables today.
Diane Tavenner
Indeed, we are going to shift gears a bit today, not away from AI because based on all the emails, the calls, the feedback we’re getting, this is the thing folks are thinking about and talking about. And so we’re sticking with AI. Rather, we’re going to shift away from AI school models, full school models, and infrastructure to how AI is being used directly by and with teachers and students and in classrooms. And so I think this is going to be a really interesting other dimension of what’s happening.
Michael Horn
Yeah, I think that’s right. I mean, we thought this was the next logical place to go. Everyone says if you’re not changing the classroom at some point, you’re not changing much. And so we wanted to go into that classroom and explore how a small number of folks, entrepreneurs, are thinking about really how do we use AI in classrooms without the entire school itself or the system around it being changed. And so this is it. I’m really excited for this conversation. Someone we’ve both known for a long time and get to go deeper on it Diane.
Diane Tavenner
A very long time. I’m really excited today to welcome Matt Pasternak to the conversation. I was trying to think about when we met Matt, but it feels like so long ago. I can’t even remember at this point, because you, you actually were early at School to One, which is now Teach to One as a director of assessment. And then you went and you were on the founding team of Clever, which many people will know as a tool that effectively connected edtech products to student information systems. So this really critical infrastructure piece that enabled so much of what we now sort of take for granted in terms of technology. And then most recently, you’re the founder and CEO of Once, which is a company that leverages, well, I’m going to say what I think it is, and then we’re going to get into it. You’re going to really describe it for us.
A company that leverages the research around tutoring by using reading-based software and human people to teach 3 to 7-year-olds to read. And so we’re just grateful to have you here. Thanks for joining us.
Matt Pasternak
I’m thrilled to be here. I’ve known you both for quite some time, and it’s really an honor to be on the show.
Michael Horn
Well, we’re thrilled you’re making the time for us. So let’s dig into it. As Diane mentioned, you are working on solving a problem that we’ve talked about on this podcast historically, which is teaching reading, something that there’s a lot of evidence around how to do. But as Diane said, before tackling this reading challenge, you helped build Clever. And it does feel like a big shift from, if you will, school infrastructure to teaching, learning, curriculum. Maybe it’s back to your roots in some sense from School of One. But tell us about the origin story of Once and your own personal why for building it.
Rethinking Early Reading Education
Matt Pasternak
Sure, sure. Well, I’ll share two things. You know, one is that, you know, very early in my edtech career, before Clever, I worked on some projects that were very, very expansive in what they tried to accomplish, and both on the data infrastructure side as well as on the curriculum side. And it was sort of the heady days of the late aughts or early 2000s, and then the early 2010s, excuse me. And sort of this belief, if you just sprinkled a little bit of technology or software magic on things, education, everything would just work. And there were these really exciting analogies to Netflix’s personalization. I’m sure you remember those days. And so I spent some time trying to boil the ocean.
And then after that, I just kind of made an abrupt turn and never looked back. And I said, look, I want to work on specific problems in education. And the first one was what Clever tackled. It was an area I had a lot of insight into from some of those earlier explorations on, you know, the specific problems that rostering and single sign-on presented to schools, and particularly schools trying to adopt software in varying ways. After Clever, I kind of went in a little bit of a different direction for a while, focused on voting. And then in the sort of early to mid-pandemic, I was catching up with an old friend of mine who had been a teacher in the same school where I taught after college, and we were talking about how during the early pandemic, both of our kids who are kindergarten age were out of school because schools shut down. And yet both of them learned to read in that year out of school.
Now, my wife is a former kindergarten teacher, and so I was like, oh, I had an unfair advantage, you know? I mean, she had sort of one-on-one tutoring from a kindergarten teacher. Missing kindergarten, but, you know, my close friend was a former middle school teacher, and, you know, it’s not like he had been working on that expertise forever, but he said, yeah, you know, structured 15-minute lessons every day, you know, his child learned to read, and we just sort of stepped back from it and said, wait, you know, for as long as anyone can remember, we’ve been teaching kids to read, attempting to teach kids to read, in these sort of 30-person classrooms, and, you know the numbers, and in sort of any education environment, about half of kids, if given some of the right foundation, will learn to read to some extent. And so any teacher can look at their progress and say, well, some of my kids are learning to read, it’s working. But if you want all of your kids to learn to read, you know, you can’t say that what’s happening today is working, because we’ve had flat NAEP scores for decades. And so we just started to kind of think really big picture and say, you know, what would happen if every kindergartner got the education that our two kids had gotten in the early pandemic, which is just 15 minutes a day of one-on-one reading instruction. And initially, we actually wanted to avoid schools, avoid K-12. We said, look, the sales process in the K-12 is so complicated. Let’s do something different.
Let’s actually focus on, because preschool, you know, research was just coming out about how early the brain starts developing. For where children begin, you know, learning, you know, are able to learn to interpret written language. And then as we start to explore the preschool route, we realized that that was probably even harder than K-12. And so we kind of returned to our roots and started in a charter school, actually was our first implementation, and basically just said, hey, can we put a couple people in the back of this TK classroom and teach, you know, have them provide daily one-on-one tutoring to the students to help them learn how to read. And we had some amazing success stories, and, you know, it was just a couple-month pilot. There was a child who, a child who came to school every day, you know, lots of home context, crying and kind of hiding under his desk and did not want to be in school, And it still makes me kind of emotional to tell the story, but, you know, even a month or two in, he was sort of opening up to school and responding to school, and people asked him, you know, what had changed, and he said it was the one-on-one tutoring he was getting every single day. You know, and that’s a 5-year-old who, you know, that’s going to determine the next, you know, the rest of his life, essentially. And so, you know, we kind of took that and said, and the folks who were providing the tutoring, had not had background as reading tutors.
That was really important to us, because we said there just aren’t enough kinds of trained reading specialists in the country to do this at a scale of 4 million kids a year. So you need a method that allows any adult to access material and provide this instruction. And then we had this really interesting call with Portland Public Schools, and this is kind of right after that first, right as that pilot was winding down. And we were talking to them, and they said, well, you know, we can’t, you know, we can’t afford to, you know, sort of put all these other people, you know, pay you to bring all these other people into schools and teach kids how to read. We don’t even know where you’d source them. But they said, look, we have tons of instructional assistants. That was a position that they had at the time who were supposed to be working on reading in the early grades. You know, could we use this type of program with them? And that was kind of our lightbulb moment because we said, look, you know, we are, we’re not an HR company, right? We have no expertise in how do you hire, you know, tens of thousands of tutors all over the country to provide this instruction.
We, you know, attempted it in some pilots and literally were unable to source even like a couple tutors in some metropolitan areas. And so we said, We want to work with the staff the school already has. And that really, that, you know, that conversation launched everything. We did not win that deal. We did not end up serving Portland Public Schools. It was okay. That learning that they gave us in that phone call was, you know, worth its weight in gold. And I’ll always be grateful to them for that experience and taking the time with us at that early stage in our journey.
Diane Tavenner
Matt, I love that we’re going to get sprinkled into this conversation, this bonus of just what it’s like to try to build something and sell the schools and whatnot. So that’s really fun to hear that piece. Listening to your origin story, people might be saying, wait a minute, you’re spending this season talking about AI and education, but it doesn’t seem like Once is related to technology even, or AI. And in fact, you began in that pandemic period. So before the sort of famous release of ChatGPT in November 2022. And so, you know, as a guy who at face value seems to have been tech-forward, what was your sort of original hypothesis and approach to making sure, you know, to just sort of going what it seems like a full human approach to reading? And is there technology in here anywhere?
Matt Pasternak
Yeah, so it’s a great question. I think it has, there’s a two-part answer. There. The first is that one thing we were certain of from day one was that young children learn best from adults, like actual in-person human-to-human instruction. You know, for millions of years, you know, our species and the predecessors of our species have been, you know, teaching children to identify different berries and, you know, what animal is going to hurt them and which ones are safe and, you know, how to survive. And that was all done, millions of years of evolution. For, you know, in-person communication between an adult and a child, where the child was highly motivated to learn because the stakes were life and death. And sort of the idea that you would deviate away from that just sort of seems somewhat crazy on its face to us.
